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And that was one of them. KrisS, OK then, purely hypothetically, on this planet and with no underlying assumptions at all.
If the SWP was in government and facing growing protests by counter-revolutionary mobs, egged on and supported by powerful capitalist governments in other countries, how do you think the SWP government should respond?
I think it is wrong and historically incorrect to portray Gorbachev as an anti-humanist or stooge of the imperialists.
Without Gorbachev could have ended in violence. I also think Perestroika was a genuine attempt to democractise the Soviet Union and achieve socialism with a human face.
It was a tragedy for the left that Gorbachev lost and Yeltsin won who was without doubt an imperialist stooge.
It was this point at which you intervened, so how can you now say that the question of counter-revolution is not relevant?
Who knows what would have happened with a different leadership, but do you really think ended well and without violence? You know the answer to that as well.
The only question for socialists about is what activists like you and me in that country ought to have done, what banner they should have fought under, and how they could have turned the movement to the left.
What the government should have done was commit suicide. Their place was up against a wall next to Ceaucescu. In that sense I have a rather more radical position then Eddie Truman, who was though, I suspect, partly trying to get a rise from the dead from the neck up stalinists who infest discussions like this.
And apparently succeded admirably! Er lief darauf hinaus, eine deutsche Nationalhymne zu schaffen. Von etwa bis Januar wurde das Lied offiziell nur noch in einer instrumentalen Fassung gespielt, der Text wurde nicht mehr verwendet.
Zum ersten Mal wurde der Text der Hymne am 6. Bereits in ebendieser Ausgabe sind allerdings Textvarianten erkennbar.
Vers 7 der ersten Strophe lautete nun:. Peters Musikverlag gedruckten amtliche Fassung wiedergegeben. Liederbuch der deutschen Jugend.
Von Kreuder selber gibt es keine Aussagen zu diesem Sachverhalt. September Anton Ackermann , mit Johannes R.
Wann dies geschah, ist jedoch nicht belegt. Er sandte Gerster eine korrigierte Fassung zu, und es wurde der 4. Importantly it was also about introducing political freedom and democracy.
With the backing of Russia who is to say that the GDR would not have sent the tanks in on its own people. Sure some things got worse in increased unemployment, or the dismantling of childcare.
But political freedom comes at a price. Under Communism things were crap and there was nothing people could do about it. However under German reunification things may well be crap but at least they get a vote to try and influence change.
KrisS, I know you oppose the idea that the former Soviet Union and former GDR were socialist nations and that therefore, according to you, their overthrow did not constitute counter-revolution.
How would the SWP government respond? In the logic of the East German ruling class, does it make sense for them to adopt this tactic or the other?
That seems to be the question. On Gorby the best comment was from De Klerk. He stated that he had learnt the lesson from him that it was best to jump soon rather then too late.
Remember that perhaps a majority of East germans had unrealistic illusions in the West, and that a minority of reformers, like Christa Wolf and Gregor Gysi were arguing caution and warning what opening up to the free market woud really mean.
Arguing for the old SED leadership to be destoyed was to discredit and delegitimse the ideas of there reformists, who wanted to the DDR to negotiate a settlement that could resist the full ravages of unrestrained capitalism.
It seems you would rather have been cheering Kohl, than standing shoulder to shoulder with the socialists. Oh Karl, stop being daft, eh? Actually Bert, it was socialist Vietnam, supported by the socialist Soviet Union who intervened to put the madman Pol Pot out of power.
KrisS, so you cannot imagine, under any circumstances, the SWP ever being in a position of power. Nor can you imagine, under any circumstances, any socialist government ever having to deal with any kind of counter-revolutionary activity.
Or perhaps a vigorous campaign to win support for the gains of socialism might have succeeded. Perhaps firm police action against the ultra-right elements could have isolated and defeated them quickly.
And then a real dialogue could have taken place with those wanting political change within a socialist context and the GDR might have been able to emerge from the crisis strengthened and renewed.
The GDR was a complex society. Some people actually look back on the GDR with nostaliga, not left wing theorists but people who actually lived through it.
Oh, and as for Pol Pot. The socialist government in Chile was smashed by counter-revolution precisely because of numbskulls refusing to take this question seriously.
Karl, you want me to say something so that you can then twist that in support of the East German ruling class at the time. We both know that.
Oh god it gets better and better! Better executed, communism might be a worthy alternative. But until such a day comes, I am happy to make myself comfortable in capitalism.
Regardless I doubt the DDR army would have supported Honecker in violently suppressing the protests, had he still been in power, and he would have been removed one way or another.
It has achieved a pitiful vote ever since. Implicit in your post is that you view the socialist system in the Soviet Union as equivalent to Apartheid in South Africa.
Many of the people who actually lived there have some quite good things to say about life in the socialist system.
The view that most people were more prosperous under socialism than capitalism is widespread in the former socialist countries, ranging from a large minority to an overwhelming majority.
I read a Russian newspaper c. For many people, it was now simply too expensive. Re the baggage handlers etc. For example, Lenin was actually held up by bandits at gunpoint while being taken for a drive near Moscow, and the car was stolen recovered later.
Armenia was by some way the poorest country I have ever visited, and the most war-torn. I went for a walk and happened by accident on a military funeral for an American-born Armenian officer killed fighting the Azerbaijanis.
There were also very frequent power cuts, in part because much of the electrical power in Soviet times had come from Azerbaijan, which which they were now at war.
What a dreadful twee and fluffy anthem, not mention of socialism in it at all! This is much better:. He made the very good point that the conclusion that free market capitalism was superior to the command economies of the Soviet bloc relied upon a falacy.
If you compared West Germany with East germany then clearly livinig standards were higher in the West. But if you took the free market bloc in totalality, then there was a great variation of wealth between West Germany and, for example, bangladesh, and the wealth of the North is not unconnected with the super-exploitation of the global south.
In contrast, within the Eastern bloc, there was much less variation in living standards between East germany and Romania, or the former Turkic areas of the USSR.
Now I think that Cliff was wrong on the technical and theoretical issue of whether these centralled controlled economies were capitalist, and also i think that the economic bases of these soiceties needed to be defended.
In much of the former Soviet Union, it was routine for workers to go unpaid for months on end during the s. I asked a Russian how people could survive like that.
Even when wages were paid, many places stopped accepting money, which had lost much of its value. Instead, the price of admission was one egg. Old people in particular died off in this environment, while gangsterism and prostitution flourished.
Some people of course became fabulously wealthy. And at the top was the alcoholic and corrupt Boris Yeltsin. Four years ago 27 election districts out of 51 in eastern Germany gave the Left over 25 percent of the vote.
This time it was Back in in western Germany only eight districts gave 8 percent or more to the Left; this time it was , with many reporting double-digit results.
In the capital of Berlin, even the snooty southwest borough gave the Left a surprising 7. And in former East Berlin the Left won all four boroughs hands down, getting up to 41 percent.
Those seemingly dry statistics creased many a brow in once untroubled office and government buildings. But your suspicion that: As for the referendum in Venezuela.
There were two main problems in that campaign; one was the multiplicity of issues on the ballot paper, which allowed the right wing to confuse some people about what was exactly at stake.
Another was the failure of the government- at that time- to rectify a key practical problem: Hey Bert, so you here you are again.
So here it is once more:. In general, I admire the SWP a lot. I think its members work hard for the movement and this is extremely positive. But I find it really odd that they jump in feet first to a discussion such as this, shouting their mindless slogans and then refusing to respond to any points made to them.
All we have gathered from them in this debate is: They cannot imagine ever being a part of a government themselves — all government is wrong perhaps?
They refuse to consider that any future socialist government could face hostile attempts to overthrow it.
It all rather begs the questions: Why participate in these debates? Why are you not prepared to listen to anyone else? Why are you not prepared to actually think?
Do you really believe that questions of socialism in power and how to deal with crises can best be tackled simply by shouting a few slogans and then sticking your fingers in your ears?
Firstly, the Chinese bureaucracy were on the opposite side of this barricade through the 70s and 80s, and cynically supporting numerous other horrible regimes, such as Pakistan military dictatorships indicating that post-capitalist regimes can be ruled over by fundamentally pro-socialist or anti-socialist regimes, depending on the circumstances, particularly the extent of priviledged bureaucratism the Soviet bureacracy showed its anti-socialist nature in , and things are in the balance in Vietnam now.
Secondly, the Vietnamese liberation was supported by dissident members of the Khmer Rouge, later becoming the Cambodian Peoples Party.
The CPP like the many leftist national liberation forces such as the ANC went rapidly to the right after the collapse of the Soviet Union, indicating that humanity would have been a lot better off with radical reform rather than counter-revolutionary overthrow of the Soviet Bloc regimes.
If only britain had been invaded by russia — we might have lived under socialism as well! Next time utopia is rabidly extending its hegemony across europe, lets be sure to have its glorious tanks role into our cities too!
Karl, give it a rest. Not answering it is the only possible reaction. Not the working class is in control in you hypothetical question — the SWP is.
It sheds some light on your fundamental misunderstandings. Well, the Chinese Communist Party leadership showed resolution in and so did the appalling and grotesque Mullahs-waiting-for-the-Twelfth-Imam leadership in Iran more recently.
It depends really on whether on accepts Hobbes and Machiavelli as political gurus rather than Locke and Bertrand Russell.
Not just the Saudis, come to think of it! I see those statements you are reacting to as a rather frank admission that the SWP is in the business of making abstract, moralistic propaganda.
I understand the IS was inclined to be Luxemburgist rather than Leninist. When it was turned into the SWP, or a little before that, Tony Cliff turned it towards Leninism, but perhaps that was more organisational than political.
Is the pendulum swinging back to Luxemburgism? Rosa Luxemburg had many fine qualities and significantly, the Freikorps and the SPD saw her as dangerous.
But her practical effect on the German Revolution was nil, in the limited time before her murder. Had she survived, I have difficulty seeing her as a key and effective figure in a revolutionary socialist government.
Much how I see the SWP in a revolutionary crisis. Of course, this high-minded incapacity opens the way for more competent and less scrupulous people.
Clearly, judging by their repeated refusal to answer, the SWP has no intention or desire to ever be in any position of power. Has the SWP moved to an anarchist position?
KrisS, A future UK socialist government is facing the threat of counter-revolution and workers come to the SWP for advice on how to resist.
Do you continue playing oh-so-clever word games which impress no-one but clearly keep you amused? Do you think up more devastatingly witty one-line soundbites to put them down?
Or do you actually take the time to engage your brain and actually try to deal with a serious question? Your constant evasions simply make the SWP look like its not serious.
I mean, amid all that overblown bluster, the simple fact is that any such situation is a million miles away from today and would be a question of tactics at the time.
The rats they leave one stricken ship For another sailing past Your world was going nowhere slow While ours goes nowhere fast. I also disagree with them in that they see no element of socialism in the DDR.
But that is beside the point here. If your Workers Party was in power in Britain, but it became clear that you had lost the support of the majority of the people, and mass demonstrations were on the streets demanding that you go, would you attempt to use the armed state apparatus to crush the opposition and cling on to power at all costs?
That was the thrust of my post, but it was lost in the system somehow during the time when this thread was closed.
As to my own view, I posted some brief comments on this earlier in this discussion at 61 , with regard to the situation in the GDR.
Of course, there is no absolute blueprint for dealing with any eventuality — as has been said, of course every concrete situation differs — but I think the threat to a socialist government of counter-revolution is very real and cannot be wished away.
The point in was to attempt to give these uprisings in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union a programme for political revolution in the teeth of the moral and political collapse of Stalinism but reason is beyond these cults, sects and empiricists.
Geburtstags Goethes aus Wien angereist war. Beide Versionen wurden vom jeweiligen Komponisten vorgespielt und von einem improvisierten Chor gesungen.
Noch am Nachmittag des 5. Zeitungen und der Rundfunk trugen weiter zur Verbreitung bei. Ab begann man bereits in der 1.
Klasse mit der Vermittlung der Nationalhymne. Auf einem autographen Notenblatt von Hanns Eisler, datiert vom 7.
November , finden sich zwei Textabweichungen. Dort lautet der Text der ersten Strophe:. Auferstanden aus Ruinen und der Zukunft zugewandt.
Becher Melodie Hanns Eisler Notenblatt. Brief an Karina Awanesowa . Sinn und Form . Ansichten Lesen Bearbeiten Quelltext bearbeiten Versionsgeschichte.
In anderen Projekten Commons Wikisource. Auferstanden aus ruinen analyse Okt. Alte Not gilt es zu. Das problematisch -es beginnt bereits bei den ersten Zeilen, "Auferstanden aus.
Becher und dessen Melodie Hanns Eisler verfasst haben. Der Auftrag an die Urheber ging. Wellnesshotel pilsen a reassuring fairy story. An excellent antidote to the presentation of East Germany in the mainstream media.
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